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Post by jessicab on Dec 29, 2006 22:36:39 GMT -3
Pony Pony Pony: I have seen this girl ride, and I know the horse. I have also seen the horses owner teach, and I know her methods. I'm not saying that she was hurting the horse in any way (other than breaking at the 3rd vertebrea rather than the poll, as Sarah mentioned, which is bad for the horses neck) because it is possible to "see-saw" with a gentle set and release of alternating reins, and I know that ALOT of people just don't know any better (I certainly didn't). But with a little bit of help she could learn so much more, and I think the horse would be happier for it. And I agree, low wide hands aren't going to hurt anyone and they certainly have their place (youngsters, green horses), but I'm willing to bet (just from having seen the horse and rider) that it wasn't an effective way of riding. I could be very wrong as I didn't watch this particular ride. Who knows, maybe Mizz Star was jetting around the picture of collection! I also TOTALLY agree with you about having to use oh-so less than classical methods to get a schoolie type horse to listen to an beginner type rider. I think this is also true in this case, as this "snowplow" technique is probably the easiest way for Amanda to get the desired result (lower head carriage) from Star. That doesn't mean however that we shouldn't suggest other methods that may improve both horse and rider Sarah: I think everyones quite calm hehe, atleast now. I know I am, sorry if I came off any other way. You girls have learned so much, and you both obviously really love horses. Be proactive and try to learn more.. you never stop learning! I am nothing but supportive of you gals ;D Just wanted to add that you have to keep in mind that Star may not be built to carry her head low. If she ties in high and has an upright natural head carriage you are going to have lots of trouble getting her to carry her head low. I know that this is what is desired in the western show ring, but I'm pretty confident that she show judges would rather see her going around with a natural and relaxed head carriage than to see her tanking around unbalanced with her head down in between her knees somewhere. Keep in mind that Arabs show in western events, and they carry their head MUCH higher than the QHs do. No level topline there! Star is a NFLD pony cross, not a QH, so its not really fair to her to expect her to move like one. I would just work on her carrying herself correctly, and if shes got an inverted neck, then just work on getting her to flex and carry her neck in a position that is natural and comfortable for her.
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Post by Jess on Dec 29, 2006 22:39:27 GMT -3
"getting them all to listen to children I know that sometimes you use unconventional methods to get a horse to listen and focus."
I have to say, I can understand that. Poor Diego at our barn is now being retrained by my friend Al, thankfully, but there's times when you're talking about a lesson pony that you need to do things with them that you wouldn't normally do to keep the rider (often a young child) as safe and unintimidated as you possibly can. That being said, however, if you have a horse to yourself, you'll really benefit from taking the time and training them step by step and correcting any problems in a more effective, long-term way.
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Post by Sarah on Dec 29, 2006 22:45:31 GMT -3
well said jessicab.
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Post by shelly on Dec 29, 2006 23:07:31 GMT -3
Well, we do have two certified coaches out here (love 'em to bits don't we Suz & Jess ). Star Born, if you're truely serious about improving your riding, you should really really check into taking lessons with them. I know you enjoyed that one lesson you had with Darryl. Well worth it!!! Star has a lot of issues that need to be worked through. For almost the entirety of her life u/s she was a trail horse that had her hed jerked back and reins held tight. As a result she has NO topline whatsoever.... She carries her head/neck upright with her nose stuck out to evade the pressure she's so used to expecting, any/all muscle is found along the underside of her neck, her backbone sticks out even when she's fat due to it always being hollowed out and and not developing any muscle...
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Post by Suzanne on Dec 29, 2006 23:28:25 GMT -3
I plan to get lessons from Darryl as well! I agree with Shelly, I think you should consider taking lessons from them if you are serious about improving your riding
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Post by jessicab on Dec 29, 2006 23:41:59 GMT -3
Agreed agreed... I don't necessarily agree with all their training methods, but they can certainly give you RIDING lessons. I think that if you ride better your horse will in turn move better. Not saying anything against your riding of course, but please don't think that because you can get on a horse and get it to walk trot lope stop and turn that you don't need lessons... everyone needs lessons. Everyone can improve somehow. Even the pros take lessons. Fanjee and I are probably going to take the occasional lesson from Darryl as well. Once I get a handle on her my own way Apparently she gives english lessons as well, incase anyone was interested. She did say that she does not have a jumper, so she cannot give jumping lessons, but for anyone who wants to do some solid english flatwork I'd say she'd be able to teach you something!
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Post by Mellu on Dec 30, 2006 1:08:53 GMT -3
Sarah, not everyone is blessed with an awesome isntructor like we have been. But this pissed me off too, so i'm not gonna hold you back, enlighten this poor girl. I just wanna say, my horse has a high head carriage too(as a former sulky racehorse)! Tell me, which horse looks more comfortable? (me pulling her nose down as far as possible) Me using alternating leg with little or no rein contact, so encourage her to stretch through her top line(the first step, the only one you(or I) need to worry about right now). the last two pictures aren't great examples as I haven't been riding her much to GET pictures, I'm sure sarah and Krys, maybe Vicky could show you some better examples. Notice the first of the last two her reins are loose, you DO NOT need ot have a DEATH GRIP on your reins. To get your horse to put it's head down(that kind of mentality doesn't even make sense to me anymore). But, look at that last picture she is stretching "long and low" and she's comfortable(and this is from before, when she was sore, she's even more comfortable doing that now) Danielle and I actually had a HUGE conversation about this last night, and today here is this thread. I can't be mean to this girl, because I once did it too out of ignorance(not "snowploughing" or anything to do with alternating rein, I just straight forward PULLED her nose down). Well, I just have to tell you to go read through Prancer's training log from then I bought her up. You'll see what her and I have gone through because of her being ridden like that. Ingnorance is killer on pony mouths, necks and backs. Please get informed!
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Post by Biz on Dec 30, 2006 1:27:11 GMT -3
All I'm going to say is harsh bits and horrible "coaching" in the hands of the wrong people.. is so frustrating. Go back to a snaffle please. Don't use a curb unless you're going to use it properly. It's not your fault, whoever owns the horse should know better.. And if not, because I know this continues to happen.. I think their should be a test before you're allowed to even OWN a horse. Snow plow? See Saw? Does that sound "equestrian" enough to you? Dear God.. it sounds like it for the garage.. Not an animal. Just, be careful with your horses please. Take the advice of what the other girls have posted, because they're obviously more educated than the people teaching you.
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Post by Mellu on Dec 30, 2006 1:39:19 GMT -3
Oh, I forgot to mention that(and don't want to edit my post again, feel free to do so Sarah/Sarah/Vicky).
You should NOT be riding a horse in a shank/curb, or anything harsher than a smooth mouthed snaffle until you FULLY understand those bits and how to use them and have someone experienced with ALL bits ot teach you how to use them properly.(IMO)
God I can't imagine putting someone on a horse for the first time with a curb in the horses mouth. -I- don't feel comfortable riding with a curb bit. I rode josie in one ONE time and was SO nervous abot having any rein contact.
I also cannot imagine what it would be like to be the cause of having a hard mouthed horse. Prancer's mouth is like goo(which is a miracle) and it's nice to not NEED alot of rein contact to reinforce my leg(which is why we HAVE bits).
Like. even if you CAN'T find a good instructor research on the internet, no it's not as good as a good instructor, but it's a way to expand your knowledge.
Pleeease be careful with those harsh bits if you for some reason MUST continue using them.
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Post by Upandover on Dec 30, 2006 1:54:30 GMT -3
Whoa,
let me get this straight, we have a younger girl who is in the beginner stages of her riding career, an ex trail horse ( which is a good choice for a beginner, experienced with amateures, and usually very forgiving) but with so many other issues to contend with why on earth is everyone so stuck on headset?
Can this horse walk, jog, lope in a steady rythem? dose she move off the leg with minimal pressure? dose she stand for mounting? have you started on latural work? Can she do simple changes? is she bulging? does she lunge? etc...
There is no beginner rider who knows how to properly frame a horse, that comes from years of riding experience.
traning involves buliding blocks, if one step is not there you can't move on to the next, if there is no rythme, impulsing or give there can be no framing.
What's the big rush to force your horses head down? that will come naturally with proper schooling. For now don't worry about something you don't quite understand yet, work on areas you do understand, and look to a coach to help you with the rest.
In other words don't even aptempt framing yet, work on other areas, proper headset can only be achieved when you the rider have the knowledge to ask for it properly, so don't sweat it if she is carrying herself high, it will all come in time.
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Post by Vicky on Dec 30, 2006 3:42:57 GMT -3
It doesnt matter whether or not you ride english or western-the basics are exactly the same. I do agree with the severe lack of competent coaches here (I really cant think of one..except maybe Liz. I cant comment because I havent seen her teach/had a lesson with her). If youre truly serious, do some reading and get help from experienced horse people (who wont just throw a martingale on and say "give 'er"). Where have you been, UpandOver? Have you seen 80% of the horses here? All going around with their heads cranked in because it looks pretty? "Oh look!! Sammy has her head down..SHES IN A FRAME/pro" Have fun girls
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Post by starborn on Dec 30, 2006 10:17:01 GMT -3
ok this is getting very confusing(spl?) everyone keeps saying different stuff that ive never even heard of im going to have to talk to jessica and suzanne about the lessons with the murphy's and just talk to jessica about all this.
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Post by Kayla D on Dec 30, 2006 11:33:27 GMT -3
just try and get informed. joey had such a hard mouth. i always felt so bad. and it made it worse that at the beginning leg only ment go, and go fast! michelle will probly back this up from seeing me ride. it was so hard to fix his mouth muscles and make him softer. really hard. i mean months of trying. well for me. im not sure if anyone else had a different experince or (most likely) better methods, so please, please watch you do to your ponys mouth.
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Post by chels on Dec 30, 2006 11:48:05 GMT -3
see-sawing ( pulling gently on one side of the reins then the other ) helps round out the horses neck.
pulling gently? sure. see-sawing in my books is hard pulling to force the horses head down. horses learn by consistancy, not by force nor green riders. i wish people would smarten up and get the help they don't think they need. we're not all perfect.
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Post by carly on Dec 30, 2006 12:24:19 GMT -3
ok last june i went to a clinic that was held at ABC stables (i think thats the name) and the clinician was telling us to litterly rip on our horses mouth , so i did because he told me to ..but i was not very comfortable with it because i knew it hurt :/
trust me this method DOES NOT work. my horse got totally turned from it, so much so that every time i would touch the reins she would fling her head up in the air like it hurt. i imediatley changed from what i was doing to a totally diferent method. I started using draw reins but waited until she figured out what i wanted with them rather then forcing her. she later caught on and so everytime i would put the draw reins on , even if they were really loose she would frame up. so then with this i stared LIGHTLY wiggling my fingers and everytime she would do it without draw reins on i would reward her but releasing. so please be careful with how rough you are on your horses mouth .. they can get hurt very easily.
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